CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI – Part Twenty Six
CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI – Part Twenty Six
H: Sometimes Swami speaks of the Ramayana and the Mahabharata as if they were historical, and sometimes as if they were to be taken as representative of every individual’s inner conflicts, virtues, bad qualities, etc. Are these events and people historical fact?
Sai: Yes, they are a record of historical people and incidents. But in themselves, the battles and troubles of these families are unimportant. What is of lasting significance is the inner spiritual significance of the happening. Rama was a real person and an Avatar and Dasaratha was His father. Krishna was real and the events of His Avatara were real. Rama’s life, over the ages, has been altered and distorted somewhat, and Swami’s story of Rama will be a classic through several Yugas. In the time of Krishna, the viewpoint was different, and actions occurred that would be viewed in a different light today.
H: Swami once mentioned that if we could see Rama today we would be much surprised at His appearance.
Sai: Every age has its own circumstances, traditions and values, so it should not surprise us if everyone is not just like ourselves. Even today there are such differences. In African forests people have their own ideas of what is beauty. For example, they distort lips, nostrils and ears. In the age prior to that of Rama, people were accustomed to take as their unit of measure the distance from the fingertips to the elbow. At that time, the norm for the height of a person was 14 times the measurement. Thus the height of every person would have its own harmony. In the Threta Yuga, the age of Rama, the norm for height had reduced to seven times the distance of fingertip to elbow. For the Kali Yuga, the multiple is three and one half. The description of Rama is, “That which charms.” Extraordinary divine charm was a particular characteristic of Rama’s person. His features were perfect and had a beauty that pulled the heart of every person who saw Him. His figure was likewise perfect. Height and limbs were in perfect symmetry.
H: We read that even the demons were unable to resist the charm of Rama.
Sai: The Yakshas were called demons, but even they prostrated before Rama when they perceived His charming face and figure. The Yakshas had deformed faces. Sometimes the nose was missing. Sometimes the eyes were very deeply set.
H: What about Krishna? How would He be described?Sai: The situation was somewhat different with Krishna. He had the quality of attraction. All were attracted to him and wished to come very close to him.H: Krishna was quite young then, was He not?Sai: Krishna was always young. In years, he was six or seven. The Gopis would pet Him like a child.H: In those days they had airplanes, did they not?Sai: The first was Pushpak, the one Ravana used to kidnap Sita. Indian Airlines is now building a small plane by the same name.H: Did they use atomic energy for power? |
Sai: No. By the power of mantra the plane would fly. Mantras were also used to shoot arrows. The arrows were worshipped to make them effective. When Arjuna heard of Krishna’s death, he forgot all mantras and was powerless. Today, at the festival of Navarathri, the farmers worship their farm implements with mantra and that has an effect.
H: Then even today, mantras still have effect?
Sai: Oh, yes. Even Westerners who experiment with the Gayatri mantra find it has power. The mantra should be said by a person well practiced in spiritual life.
H: Swami does not seem to give out mantras. When His devotees are ready for mantra should they ask Swami, or will He say when they are ready?
Sai: Mantras now are given out by low persons, the head of a Mutt here and there, some yogi, and so on. Avatars have never given mantras. The Avatar shows that God is everywhere. The recitation of a mantra is narrow-minded. In the time of an Avatar, to hear him, to understand what he says and do it is a mantra. Krishna gave no mantra to the Pandava brothers, not even to Arjuna. He simply said, “Do this, do that.” This was enough and the action was very powerful.
H: Baba’s teaching carries the ring of truth and His words carry into action almost by themselves. Their authority does not even depend on whether Swami is an Avatar or not.
Sai: Don’t doubt about the Avatar as Swami. Without His reading it, any question asked of Baba is answered immediately, without any pause, and in detail.
H: An incident in Sri Krishna’s life that I do not understand is that when He instructed Arjuna to conduct the women and children to safety, Arjuna failed. Why?
Sai: Arjuna always felt that Krishna was in his heart and that gave him his strength. When he heard that Krishna had died, he felt that Krishna was gone and as he felt this his strength left him.
H: But Swami, if Arjuna had Krishna in his heart, why did Krishna’s death have such an effect?
Sai: For some 80 years Arjuna felt Krishna was with him in his heart. The reaction of shock at the news of Krishna’s death caused him to momentarily forget. It was weakness. Then, he was not able to recapture the feeling of Krishna being with him.
H: If Arjuna had kept the feeling and concept of Krishna in his heart, would he have retained his strength?
Sai: When he heard that Krishna had died, he lost all interest in the world.
H: The Gopis were overcome with grief when Krishna departed from there. They must have had Him in their hearts.
Sai: At the news of Krishna’s death, a number of the Gopis fell lifeless from shock.
H: Then their relationship was only with the form of Krishna?
Sai: The Gopis had both relationships. Because of their years of close companionship with Krishna, they were strongly attached to Krishna’s physical presence. But they also were knowing Krishna in their hearts. They always felt He was with them, even when His worldly activity had taken Him far away.
H: Then why the terrible shock, if Krishna was so firmly known in the heart?
Sai: The Gopis had no interest in the world and the body once Krishna was dead. Their only reason for placing any value on their physical existence was because Krishna was also in physical existence. Their hearts were completely pure, and Krishna was their heart. The physical bond was also strong. For example, you have proof that Swami is always with you, but at the same time, you wish to come to India to be near Swami, isn’t it?
H: It seems to me that this episode of Arjuna and the death of Krishna carries a very important lesson for us who live today.
Sai: There is no need to take Arjuna as a model. Just realize that God is with you and in your heart at all times.
H: Might an Avatar be born in some other part of the world?
Sai: Buddha, Christ, Mohammed and others were not Avatars. They had some divine power. Only in India are Avatars born, because only in India are the Sastras understood. And only in India do the sages constantly experiment and practice. It is like in a gold mine. Where gold is found, there gather the geologists, engineers, and experienced miners. The gold is mined there, and then it is taken all over the world.
CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI – Part Twenty Seven
SAI: (At the start of an interview with a group of westerners) Follow the master, the inside Atma, the super-conscious. Life is a challenge; fight to the end. Life is a song; sing it. Life is divine; realize it. Life is character. There is one path, complete life. (To a young westerner, about age 16) What do you want?
SAI: What is liberation?
Boy: (After some hesitation) End of the path.
SAI: Immortality is the meaning. Removal of immorality is the only way to immortality. Who are you? Not the outside, not body. Who are you? Inquire. Love is everything. Expansive love, not selfish love. Selfless love of the Self, not ego love.
All are ladies. None are men. Lady is weakness, not strength. The Sanskrit word for lady has the meaning of weakness, no strength at all. All humans are so. Hate, anger, jealousy, sorrow – men may better control these, but their inside feeling is the same. Only God is above feeling. All others are equally affected. God is the only male person. In a women’s college, in a play, men characters may appear on the stage, but the male casts are women dressed as men. The world is women’s college. There are just male roles. Inside all are the same, all women. Life is a cosmic stage on which we are the actors. In one scene an actor may take one role, and in other scenes different roles.
Creation means change and nothing is unchanging as every moment there is change. How can these changing things give bliss to persons who are also changing? Your bliss can be made permanent only by immortality where there is no change. Scientists experiment today and tomorrow their findings are outmoded. The world goes on overriding itself.
THE IMPORTANCE OF STUDY CIRCLES
Hislop asked the question, ‘What is a study circle?’ It is not just reading books. Study circle means taking a point and each person discussing its meaning to them, like a round table conference. Each person gives his point of view, and finally values are derived from this. If people just read, there will be doubts. But if each one gives his view, doubts will be answered. The topic is viewed with the study circle looking at different facets. Like a diamond with different facets, there is one facet that is flat, the top facet, and all can be viewed from this. To discover the top facet is the task of the study circle.
You may take Swami’s talks, or other scriptures. Take one point and let everyone think about it, discuss it, and come to the final point where doubts are resolved. If only one person reads, there will be only one meaning. After misunderstandings and different points of view are brought out, the study circle members will get confidence. There is no doubt about this. If only each one reads, this may go on for a year or two, then an allergy to reading develops. Centers must have study circles in this way, and none will note the passage of time. Each one listens eagerly and many will give their point of view. The Bible, the Koran, the Gita and Swami’s books may be used. What is wanted is a study circle which rotates giving each one a chance
A Scientist Visitor:(Father of the 16-year-old boy earlier questioned by Swami) Many fools do not make one wise man.
SAI: Only those who are intelligent will wish to bother with a study circle. They may be fools in other matters, perhaps. But we have here the example of a doctor who does operations but who in bandaging is a fool, relying upon his nurse to do a good job. Life means such a mixture. A man with a dual mind is half blind. Every one is half blind in some matters. Only he who knows the divine is an expert first class in one study. But in general, people have no common sense. But common sense is necessary in daily life and that is what counts. Each subject is only one road; but mastery, the development of common sense is a spiritual effort. In a house an elder is not respected because a younger member has studied some subjects, but common sense requires that the youth’s attitude to the elder be respectful. Common sense is required. Humility and love are divine. If you become the master of a subject, but develop anger and ego, these are enemies on the spiritual path.
middle that has pressure.
H (Hislop): From Swami’s description of the conversation to be accomplished in a study circle, the circle should be limited to about 10 people.
SAI: Why? It could be 100 people.
H: But Swami, not even one point would be able to get around such a big circle.
SAI: Not so. Of the group here, only the scientist and Hislop are asking questions. Not everyone in the study circle will be able to speak.
H: Oh, I see that situation.
THE LIMITS OF SCIENCE
Scientist: Here is this object. I spoke about Swami in Copenhagen, and some scientists who were interested made this object. What it is cannot be seen. The scientists know but it cannot be seen.
SAI: It is Baba’s task to transform people’s hearts.
H: They are trying to subject Baba to a test! (The scientist and his associate had for several years past been trying to get Swami to subject Himself to wires and electronic measurement and so on.)
SAI: Baba can transform the scientists, but scientists can transform themselves only by getting into the spiritual life. It is only physics in which they are engaged. Philosophy starts where physics ends. Physics is useful, but it is only information. Spiritual life is transformation.
