CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI – Part Thirty Two
The Purity of Sai
H (Hislop): I have asked important persons around Sai if Sai is all- knowing at all times, or only when He so chooses. They give different answers.
SAI: Sai knows everything. That people are in doubt due to the Maya of the Avathar. You know that Sai is in your heart, yet you think, “Is Sai upstairs in His room, or is He elsewhere?” It is the human element. The body has the name of Hislop, but you are not the body. You are the Atma (spirit). There is no desire in Sai. There is total purity only. This entire body is Amrith (nectar). Where is there space for desire in Sai? Everything is already mine. Sai does not think. My will is immediately realized.
Whatever it may be, it instantly appears; an envelope, gold, everything. Where is there room for desire? I have no thought. If I think, it is for you, it is not for Me. Sai requires no food. If I eat, it is for the benefit of everyone. If I give Darshan, it is not for Me, it is for others. I am talking to you now – it is for you, not for Me. A point does not appear in Sai. First a point, then disappoint! I am always the same. I am love, always love. If there are angry words, that is action. Inwardly, I remain the same. I have the same tender love for that person.
H: Swami, some tragedy happens to a person, and they try to find a reason for it in the actions of this lifetime.
SAI: Yes, that can be.
H: But I thought that all that happens in this life is the result of our behaviour in past existences.
SAI: Not always. Something could happen with its cause in this life.
The Goal is to Realise Our Divinity
H: Swami, please restate or redefine the goal, the objective of the American Sathya Sai Organization.
SAI: It is not just the American, it is the objective for the worldwide Sathya Sai Organizations.
People, the world over, do not know they are Divine. They do not even realize what it is to be human. They have ego, anger, greed, envy, lust, hatred. These are not human qualities; they are animal qualities.
Unless Sai devotees are, at the very least, human persons free of animal qualities or characteristics, how can such devotees suggest spiritual life to others? Such suggestions will have no impact, if devotees in general are not yet free of animal characteristics. There should be in each Sathya Sai Baba Center two or three members who live a life as true human beings
The individual does not progress alone. He is not separate from Society, and he must do his bit to uplift the society. Therefore, the individual’s work to free himself from animal characteristics and to live a spiritual life is not done for himself, but is done for all of God’s creatures. The work of freeing the individual’s nature from animal qualities is done, in love, for God, and done in His Name and with His help.
Each member of the Sathya Sai Baba Center should work very hard to purify the quality of his life, and the goal should be to lead a perfect life, an ideal life; to be an ideal exemplar of the divine teachings of Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba.
The world will respond to the ideal life of a Sai devotee. The world is yearning for the ideal life and will, of its own accord, adopt such a life if it comes into view. They will respond, and they will follow such a life.
H: But all must come to be humans in order to merge with God, is it not so?
SAI: Not totally so. There is love.
H: Then, can man take a further step and go into the world above the senses.
SAI: That is possible.
H: But is it not possible to realize the Self, or merge with God, while in the human state?
SAI: Oh, yes. That can be done.
H: Does Swami mean that both possibilities exist, that man could go one way or the other?
SAI: Yes, one way or the other.
H: Then what makes the difference? What is the difference in man that he would make one choice or the other?
RB: That is what I want to know, too.
SAI: Yes, trees. Then human beings and animals. At the very center is the Divine. It is the support of everything. First is liquid, chemistry. Then solid, physics. Then trees, botany. Then man, the pinnacle of life. But at the center, supporting all, is the Divine. Without the Divine, where is chemistry, physics, botany? This will be the teaching of all courses at the University. The students will understand the full picture.
Realising God Through Love
SAI: Love is the dominant reason. Compassionate love is pure love, unselfish. In the animal there is love, but it is mixed with lust. But compassion is pure love. Only man has compassion. Through love he may realize the oneness of life, and in this way, by love, he will be one with God.
| H: Then, Swami, man can definitely realize God while in the human birth?SAI: Yes.H: But suppose he fails in that, and thus eventually finds himself as a being above the sensory level, what then?SAI: The same holds true. God is love and wherever there is pure love and love only, that is God. Love is everything, but people do not understand love. Their understanding is confused. For example: There is a child. Mother and father love the child with pure love. The child is kissed and fondled and showered with affection. This is the action of pure love. In this action there is no lust; there is no lust in that love. Another example: A father is 40 years old. There is the wife and the daughter who is 18 years of age. The love of the father for his family leads him to kiss his daughter. In this action of love, there is no lust. It is pure love, compassion. The husband also kisses his wife, and in this kiss there is some mixture of lust. In both cases, the kiss was the action of love, but the love was different. |
H: Swami, that is a wonderful explanation. The difference is very clear, and very important to understand.
SAI: Pure love, Divine love is everything.
RB: How do human beings realize and become that divine, pure compassionate !ove?
SAI: It will come with sadhana. There is a big mistake in the consideration of meditation as the principal sadhana. What is meditation? Meditation controls the mind. It is mental. The genuine sadhana is that pure love which is not different from the Divine.
CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI – Part Thirty Three
Discipline and Conscience
Ac: What to do with a devotee who is making friction in a Center?
SAI: Out. Put them out.
H (Hislop): Our discipline is very strict in the American Centers. That is correct.
SAI: Sai’s English has improved?
H: Yes, Swami. It is greatly improved.
SAI: All is love. All is love. The Russians are rationalists. Faith is of the greatest importance. Words, words, words; reason will not do. Faith is from the heart, the language of the heart.
H: But faith is a gift from God. Man can only have it if God wills.
SAI: Yes, God blesses. Purity helps. Swami is soft as butter, but hard as a diamond. Butter soft, diamond hard. Some small freedom I allow; not very much. The end of wisdom is freedom. That is the true freedom. Discipline is important. Swami demands strict discipline. Many foreigners are outside in the village. There man can sit beside woman and they can smoke. Inside the Ashram, Swami does not allow that.
H: A good small pamphlet explaining the rules of the Ashram should be given to everyone. People do not know. Germans in the round building play loud tape recorders because they do not know better.
SAI: In a room next to Admissions, someone should repeat the rules to each newcomer.
H: An important statement of Swami’s is that we should ignore the faults of others. But how does one put this into practice? If one is dealing with a person, the fault must be taken into account; the fault may ruin the situation.
SAI: Inside himself, the person is not like that. He knows he is wrong. If the fault is being expressed, move away from the person, keep a distance. Then the person will see he is wrong and will approach you in repentance.
SAI: What counts is faith. Faith is of great importance. God should be installed in every thought and act. There may be a person who is the owner of a house. A tenant may be taken into the house, and year after year the tenant may pay the rent. At last, after many years of paying the rent, the tenant owns the house.
H: Why would that be?
SAI: The owner might say, “The house is mine.” But the tenant will reply, “No. The house is now mine.” That is the law.
H: Is that the law in this situation?
SAI: Yes. It is the same with the Lord. He is the “renter.” Your body and mind is the “house.” Once you have brought Him into the house and installed Him there, in due course, He is the “owner.” The house no longer belongs to “you.” It is now the dwelling of God. It is fully “owned” by Him.
H: Swami! That is wonderful! That is the way to come to the point of “Surrender to the Lord.” By keeping Baba in heart and mind, gradually and naturally, there is full surrender.
SAI: Yes, it comes to be quite naturally. But not everyone is able to do it. Devotion and faith need be very strong.
H: But cannot everyone make a start?
SAI: Yes, certainly, a start can be made.
H: May I tell this to our Sai Centers in America?
SAI: You may tell.
Three Stages of Evolution
H: Swami gives three stages of evolution beyond the human: Superhuman, Cosmic, and Absolute. What does superhuman mean?
SAI: Superhuman is the stage of complete detachment from Body and World. Something may be said or done at this stage to benefit humanity and the world, but the Superhuman is no longer a part of the world of men nor involved in the interests of men.
H: Are there such people now?
SAI: Oh, yes.
H: Are they those people in the Himalayan Mountains who can be invisible and do the extraordinary things we hear about?
SAI: No. Those individuals are still seeking liberation. But it is temporary.
H: Temporary, Swami! That is awful! To get liberation and then lose it!
SAI: There are three kinds of liberation. It is experienced in one type of Samadhi. Then, a person who is engaged in Sadhana can suddenly – like a flash of lightening – have a clear vision of the Truth, but it fades and ordinary life resumes. Liberation cannot be permanent without total surrender.
H: Then, if not the people in the Himalayas, who are the Superhumans?
SAI: (Naming half a dozen or so of the ancient sages) These people were totally above human and worldly life, although for the benefit of others, they would give certain advice and engage in certain actions.
H: But that was long ago. Are there Superhumans in this day and age?
SAI: Oh, yes, there are. But today, outwardly, they live in Society and outwardly cannot be recognized.
H: What is the Cosmic stage?
SAI: No body, no mind. Both have disappeared. Body, feelings, mind, intelligence are no longer there. Just love, just spirituality.
H: Are there entities, individuals, in the Cosmic stage?
SAI: No. No individuals. More similar to currents of spiritual power.
| Swami Bestows Full LiberationH: Well, the Absolute is Swami. That is understood. When Swami says He will confer liberation at death, what does that mean?SAI: It means that birth is finished with, there is no more birth again.H: But Swami, there is this temporary liberation that was mentioned. Maybe it is that kind?SAI: No, it is not like that. Sai gives total, final, liberation.H: Could there be the ending of individuality, too?SAI: There could be.H: Individuality is a nuisance.SAI: Yes, individuality is a nuisance. |
H: One of Swami’s statements is not understood. Swami has said that man is born with a dual gift from God – Discrimination and Conscience. And that because of conscience, everyone knows right from wrong; for, if he were to do wrong, his conscience would trouble him.
SAI: Yes, that is the case.
H: But people point out, Swami, that people of one religion kill people of another religion, and they do it because their conscience tells them it is right to do it.
SAI: It is not that way. When such things occur, it is because the individual has surrendered his judgment to someone else, or to an idea propagated by someone. If the person were to reject ideas and rely upon himself, his conscience, even though deeply buried, would be there to prompt the person; for Conscience is God, Resident in the person.
H: Throughout the world, crime is growing rapidly. But in America, there is doubt about how to deal with criminals. How should criminals be dealt with?
SAI: There must be punishment. In areas of the Middle East, for example, if a person commits the crime of theft, the hand is cut off. When a person commits a crime, punishment must follow.
The Stages in the Life of the Avatar
H: Swami, people are thinking that after His 60th Birthday, Bhagavan Baba will step away from contact with the world and that His devotees will no longer have access to Him.
SAI: No, not at all. Sai is not separating from the world, nor will He separate from His devotees. The course of an Avatar goes invariably through the same stages. It is the same for every Avatar at all times. The first 16 years are characterized by constant leelas. Then leelas and teachings up to age 45. From age 45 to age 60, the emphasis is almost wholly on teaching. At age 60, there is a very big change.
H: How, Swami? (Sai listed some things I should not repeat, but then…) After age 60, Sai will directly give added strength to the minds of those persons who are actively working with Him. Now is starting a time of change. It is just as when a strong wind comes up and blows away the husks, leaving only the sound kernels. In these times, many devotees will fall away from Sai, leaving only those devotees whose faith is sound and solid. Have not you yourself noted a change? In the early years Sai came to your room to talk with you. Now, you come to the veranda each day and Sai does not even stop and speak with you. Such changes occur in the different stages of the Avatar.
H: Swami has said that the entire world will know of His presence. At this time only a relatively few people know of Sai. As of now only local individuals represent Him, and they do not draw the attention of people of substance and importance throughout the world.
SAI: Sai does not look at status and worldly importance. He looks at the heart.
H: Yes, Swami, but it is the leaders in society who tend arouse the attention and interest of the general population.
SAI: Sai does not force such things. He will be in body for many more years. What you refer to will develop naturally. Devotees of world stature, able to speak of Sai, will be present when the time is correct for them.
