CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI – PART Twenty Two H: Some say it is necessary to mortify the body to overcome the tendencies? SAI: Some spiritual aspirants do tapas and various austerities that torture and weaken the body. This is wrong. If there is a healthy body, this is the basis for healthy thoughts. H: One’s tendencies are there for a long time. Despite oneself, they come up again and again. SAI: There is the sun, the magnifying glass, and the paper. God is the sun, far away. The heart is the glass. The desire and tendencies, the paper. If the glass is just right, the paper is burned at once. If the heart has strong love for God, and faith in Him, the glass is automatically right. THE SENSE OF TASTE H: One very strong tendency is in the tongue, the problem of taste, which gives rise to craving for more. How to overcome that? SAI: The body is like a boil. Water is for cleansing the wound. Food is the medicine. Clothing is the bandage. Considering the body so, reduces the strength of taste. But what is taken in by seeing, hearing, talking, is the more important food. Gross food for the body is like digging a well. Whereas pure, subtle impressions taken in by the other senses is like building a wall high into the heavens. It is building the wall high that should have the major emphasis. THE BODY AS THE TEMPLE OF GOD H: Body is like a boil. But Swami often uses the phrase, ‘the body is the temple of God’. SAI: In the spiritual world there is a different arithmetic. 3-1=1. There is you, the mirror, and the image. Remove the mirror, and there is only one left. Life is the mirror, body is the reflection. Be attached to God, and there is only One, God. The body is the temple of God. The life of the person is the priest. The five senses are the vessels used in the religious ceremony. Atma is God, the idol of God. One cannot say that the body is the temple of God unless it is. Every act, thought, and word should be worship in the temple. The five senses should constantly be cleansed and polished, so that the worship is reverently offered to God. One goes to the office and says to himself that every act of the day should be the worship of God, and it will be so. H: Swami says that when the senses leave their place and mix with worldly objects pain and pleasure are produced. What is the proper place of the senses? SAI: It is all the play of desire. Desire for worldly objects produces pleasure and pain, whereas desire for God confers bliss and does not produce pain. THE RIGHT EXPRESSION OF DESIREH: But Swami, most of our actions arise from worldly desires. We see, hear, think, feel, smell. Then there is some desire and that leads to action.SAI: God works through you as desire.H: Swami! Does God prompt even the bad desire?SAI: There is the strong thrust of the life force, the desire to live. If it goes into action in a favourable field, it becomes love; otherwise, it remains as desire. If desire is expressed in a favourable field, it is expressed as love. Then knowledge and bliss arise. The force, the strength, the energy, and the motivation in desire is God. Whether the desire is good or bad is related to time, place, and person. In early years, a desire for worldly achievement might be good. In later years, the same desire might be bad. Fruit, good one day may be rotten several days later. One side of an apple may become good, the other side rotten. Discrimination says eat the good side and discard the bad. There is another force in you through which God works, and that is discrimination. That force must be used to put aside wrong action. The power of discrimination knows what is right and what is wrong. The wrong desire is God overshadowed by Maya. Whereas discrimination is God less overshadowed by Maya. H: Swami! This really explains the whole problem of good and evil? SAI: Yes. The story of Valmiki is an illustration. He was a ruthless killer and robber without any doubt about his actions. He, at one time, listened to the five sages and started repeating ‘Ram’. The same strength and force that made him a terrible criminal was turned to Godly desire and action, and he gained God-realization. Valmiki started to repeat ‘Rama’ and, gaining speed ‘Rama’ became jumbled up with ‘Ma’ and ‘Mara’. In this he lost body sense and transcended the senses. Losing body sense should be like that, natural and not forced. H: Swami says that body, mind, intelligence do not work for anybody, that they do their own work. What does that mean? SAI: What is meant is, ‘unfortunately, that is the case’. They are doing their own work, but the work should be co-ordinated for the benefit of the igher. For example, the eyes see. Seeing is their work. But unless they see for somebody there is no point in their work. The mind should be seeing through the eyes. The intelligence should be directing and controlling the mind, for that is the intelligence’s own work. H: Then, for whom should the entire mechanism be functioning? SAI: For the Atma. A small example: the earth turns on its own axis, but at the same time it is revolving around the sun. The various faculties of man should do their own work, but the Atma is the centre of their universe. H: There seems to be something wrong. The Atma is not doing its work of directing the faculties. How can one bring the faculties under the control of the Atma? THE MEANING OF SURRENDER SAI: When one realizes that the Atma is the reality, everything will function very smoothly. It is a question of surrendering all to the Atma. H: But Swami has said that one cannot surrender that which he really does not own and of

CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI – Part Twenty H (Hislop): At times, Swami, sounds are still heard as usual, but every sound is surrounded by silence, and it is the silence that is heard. SAI: That silence that surrounds outside sounds is God. Inside that silence is the eternal sound of ‘Om’. There is only one sound, and that is ‘Om’. Every other sound arises from Om. H: One is conscious of a force, a strength that rises up in oneself. What is that? SAI: That life force must be turned to God. H: How does one direct that force? SAI: Through faith and love. These must be tended with love and care like tender plants. The bud cannot be forcefully pulled up into a tree. H: Baba said Ramakrishna Paramahamsa merely touched Vivekananda and transformed him? SAI: Yes. But it was temporary. After a while it fell away. Vivekananda’s strong temper rose again and he had to work out his own sadhana. What Ramakrishna accomplished was to reverse the trend to Vivekananda’s life from downwards into material life to upwards into spiritual sadhana. Without that, Vivekananda would have continued in materialistic life. H: Can it be said that the reversal given to Vivekananda’s life by the touch of Ramakrishna is given to our own lives merely by the Darshan of Baba? SAI: ‘Yes, yes, yes’, refers to inner acceptance. Experiences and situations arise in the life of a person. His tendency is to say ‘yes’ to that which is pleasing and ‘no’ if the prospect is otherwise… This is a great mistake. Swami says ‘Yes, yes, yes’ to everything that comes to Him. All is the gift of God. Every experience given by God is good. Through sincere and loving inquiry, that “good” will be found in every experience. ‘Yes, yes, yes’ refers to inner acceptance. But there is bad work and good work. Whatever they are, they are real. ‘Yes, yes, yes’ does not change them. A man locks his valuables in a safe and carries away the key in the belief that it is safe. But thieves take the safe and break it open. So, one must be sure that he understands the essentials of every situation. SPIRITUAL LIFE IS EASY! SAI: Vital to spiritual life is self-confidence, the conviction that one is the Atma. Spiritual life is easy. There are some initial problems, as in learning anything. But it is easy. A bowl turned upside down remains dry no matter how heavy the rain. Whereas a bowl turned up collects some rain even though the rain is very light. If the heart is turned towards God, some grace will be received. If the interest and devotion is intense, grace will fill the bowl. It is life in the outer world that is endless trouble, whereas spiritual life is easy. One already has the necessary concentration. To be reborn again requires no work. Not to be reborn again requires much work. To gain wealth requires much work. To remain poor requires no work. THE ‘REALITY’ OF THE DREAM AND WAKING STATE H: When a person is in the waking state, he can observe that the dream experience is a projection of his own mind. Swami says that the waking state is also a dream. But where is the vantage point from which we may observe that the waking state is only a dream? SAI: One may have a dream that he is a child, that he attends school, makes friends, marries, is a father and has a career – a sequence of events that covers 45 years of his life. When the waking state is transcended, it also is seen to be a dream, and a lifetime in the waking state has taken only a few moments in the transcendental state. The waking state is seen to be a dream, and the dream state, a dream within a dream. The dream state is unreality in truth; the waking state is truth in unreality; and the transcendent state is truth in truth. The ‘I’ in the dreamstate is taken to be the body. The ‘I’ in the waking state is taken to be the mind. And the ‘I’ in the transcendent state is God. H: But Swami, there is another difference between the dream state and the waking state. In the dream state one does not doubt his reality, whereas in the waking state there is an extremely strong doubt. In the waking state one cannot believe that he is a real entity; one sees himself as a shadow and not as a real person engaged in activity. SAI: You see yourself as a shadow. And then there is a change, and you experience yourself as real. Like this it changes back and forth. The two sides of a coin, the face and the obverse. H: Yes, it is like that. SAI: But that is not the typical experience of the waking state. It is a yogic stage due to sadhana. People ordinarily experience the dream state as truth while dreaming and they experience the waking state as truth while awake. What you experience is qualified monism. In the advaitic (non-dualistic) state, even the shadow is seen as a reflection of the Divine. SAI: In the world, the metal, the stone and the jeweller are all separate, as is the one who will take the ring, and they must be brought together. Whereas, in the world of Swami, the metal, the stone, the jeweller and the one who will take the ring are all one, and that One is God. In the world, time is needed. But God is beyond time. Immediately the ring is ready. A Visitor: It would be of interest if Baba would do a large creation. SAI: Since Swami has taken a body He has imposed certain proper limitations on Himself. Swami has created idols of gold and could just as easily create a mountain of gold. STAGES IN SWAMI’S LIFE H: Swami, people are thinking that after His 60th birthday Bhagavan Baba will step away from contact with the world and that His devotees will no longer have access to Him. SAI: No, not at all. Sai is not

CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI – Part Eighteen H (HISLOP): What did Baba mean about the spiritual rays that comprise a human being, being projected into the vastness, instead of the SAI: When the world melts away, when there is bliss or even when there is a temporary feeling of happiness, hold to that state and stay with it, and do not allow yourself to fall back into ego, emotions and thoughts. From man comes a series of spiritual rays whose quality is delight and bliss. All man need do is to manifest that bliss. The idea of search is an error. Everyone already knows the truth. All that is needed is to put that truth into practice and to manifest it. The humanity of man is just these spiritual rays of delight. It is very easy to crush a flower, or t owink an eye; Self-realization is as easy as that. BE HAPPY H: Swami said that it is man’s duty to be happy. SAI: Happiness is essential for God-realization. It is one of the major gates to divinity. It is not just a fault if a person is not happy; it is one of the most serious of all faults. It is a barrier to Realization. Mostly, people are unhappy because of worldly pursuits, attachments, enjoyments. Too much interested in the world. To get free of this fault, a person has to be told of the seriousness of the fault. He should realise that desire is never-ending, like the waves of the sea. H: Swami says that pleasure or happiness is the interval between two sorrows. What is the implication? THE CAUSE OF SORROW SAI: Pleasure is an interval between two sorrows. Remove the sorrow and only pleasure, and delight remain. But nobody troubles to find the cause of sorrow. It is like the lady who went to look for a lost needle under the street lamp because there was no light in the house where she had lost the article. The house is lit by the light of wisdom. The lost item must be found where it was lost. Actually, sorrow and pain are caused by desire. The cure is to use that same desire and turn it to God, to desire God. Instantly, suffering will cease because the cause, turning from God to worldly desire, has been eliminated. The incidents that caused sorrow will cease to cause sorrow. If a person called ‘my’ suffers, there is a direct pain in oneself. But if one’s desire is for God only, that pain will cease. H: But one suffers also because of the pain he is aware of in another. SAI: The suffering one feels for other people whom one sees suffering, is from imagination. That sympathetic suffering will leave, but the sympathy remains. Compassion is when love is mobile and flows. Personal love is when love is not mobile but remains fixed on husband, wife, child, etc. Devotion is that free mobile flow of love to God. CAUTION WITH OVER FAMILIARITY H: Last night, in speaking to the students, Swami said something very puzzling, that another person’s sins would pass to oneself through the touch of that person’s skin. SAI: For that reason it is that some Swamis will not allow devotees to touch the feet. Since one cannot be sure who is bad and who is good, it is best to refrain from touching. A Visitor: Is that why Indians greet people by that kind of salute, instead of by much handshaking as is done in the West? SAI: No. That is not the reason. H: Does Swami mean that if I touch a person, I then commit sin in the same way as he? H: I gave Swami a ring created by a yogi. I did not want wear it and I didn’t know what to do with it. That is, I sent it up to Swami by a messenger with a note about it. SAI: That was another attempt aimed at you by other interests. You are known as a devotee to Baba, and it was an attempt to interest you elsewhere. Like that western city matter. You should reject such attempts out-of-hand. H: But that man from there said Swami stayed at his house. SAI: Not true. That area is strongly Communist. At one time Baba did bring about genuine evidence of His Sankalpa there, but ego and money-making arose, so Baba stopped things. Again He allowed it, and now He has again stopped it. Those people, in fear of loss of reputation, are now doing things by tricks. H: The man seemed a very nice fellow. CHALLENGES WITH EVERY AVATAR Not long ago, there was a man who challenged Swami to some tests. Stories appeared over a broad area, even in other countries. This man had some foreign people in his camp. Some of Swami’s devotees urged Him to reply. But to reply would have been shameful. This yogi was eating nails and glass and so on. He created a special tank for a test of water walking. Why a special tank? Something crooked. He sold tickets to spectators for up to 100 rupees and more per ticket. On the appointed day he stepped on the water and sank in the water. The police had to put him in a cell to protect him from abuse, and all the money was refunded. Now, people said, what a fool he had been to challenge Swami. His disaster was a result of the foolish challenge. Later, the man wrote to Swami disclaiming any serious intent to challenge, and confessed that he had used Swami’s name just to increase ticket sales. The man is gone and now nothing is heard about him. H: But Swami, why would the man be so foolish as to try to walk on water without practice beforehand? SAI: The man was walking on water. But ego and greed arose, and that finished it. Thought, word, and deed must be the same. H: In the car en route to Anantapur, an American who was teaching at the Sathya Sai College at Brindavan said, ‘Swami, I feel guilty at

CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI – Part Sixteen H: (HISLOP):The Buddha’s way of slowing down the mind is given much attention in Burma. Swami must have a better way? SAI: The Buddha’s way of watching the breath as it enters and leaves the nostrils is just a beginning, just for a few minutes before the meditation begins. There is no ‘better’ way to quiet the mind. There is only one way. Sitting in meditation, the question often comes up, ‘How long to sit?’ There is no answer. There is no particular time. Meditation is really an all-day-long process. The sun shines and the sunlight falls here and there. What is the difference between the sun and the sunlight? H: There is no difference, Swami. SAI: In the same way, all is God – thoughts, desires, all are God. All thoughts should be regarded as God. H: But Swami, there is still the puzzle of how to slow down the activity of the mind SAI: Really, there is no mind; it is a question of what is desired. With God as the only desire, all will be well. H: But in meditation there is this fast rush of thoughts and ideas through the mind. Does not this need to be slowed down so that there may be quiet in meditation? SAI: Yes. The mind must slow down. At a certain stage it will come to a stop. If desire in meditation is turned towards union with God, the mind will naturally slow down. No method should be used; no force used. Desire should not be too fast, too strong. Even desire for God can be too hurried, too feverish. Start early, drive slowly, reach safely. It is possible to be too lazy. Fast, then slow is also bad. The process should be steady. H:These thoughts that stream through the mind, are they material? SAI:Yes, they are matter. All matter is impermanent. H: Where do thoughts come from? SAI:They come from food and environment. If you have sathwic food and have only desire for good, only good thoughts will come. H: Where do thoughts go? SAI: They go no place. Because thoughts do not flow through the mind. The mind goes out and grasps and gets engaged in thoughts. If desire is for God, the mind does not go out. But the best way is not to have the problem of getting rid of thoughts. The best way is to see all thoughts as God. Then only God-thoughts will come H: Swami says that it is the Atma that is unlimited power, yet in one’s daily life, the mind gives the experience of being a sort of relentless power. SAI: The mind is passive, yet it seems to be active. It is active only because the Atma (Self) reflects into it. It sometimes seems to be stronger than Atma. Iron, in its nature, is not hot; it is cool and passive. The iron is heated in fire. Is it the iron that burns, thus creating the heat? No,  A Visitor: How can I tell what is right thought? SAI: Here, in the Ashram, you can ask Swami. In America, pray for the answer, then make inquiry in an impersonal way, and in half an hour you will have the answer.If you know what is right, don’t ask. Do it. That is confidence, God power. Put aside all relationships. Is the work right, regardless of who is involved? H:Swami says to keep a distance from the mind. What does that mean? SAI: That means do not be led by the mind. H:What are the acceptable mental functions? SAI: First, find out what is right and what is wrong. If right, do that which satisfies you. If unsure, do nothing until sure. SAI: Only in words, in the mind, is there a difference. When one is fully devoted to God, desiring Him only, the verbal and conceptual differentiation will cease, and the world also will be seen as God. The sequence should be experienced and seen as God, life, world. But most people see the world, life – and God is far distant. ON THE REASON FOR CREATION A Visitor: Why is creation? What is the reason for it? SAI: First ask, ‘Why food?’ No reason. ‘Why marriage?’ No reason. Then children. ‘Why children?’ No reason. It is your wish. Creation is God’s wish, His Sankalpa. There is a seed of a tree. It sprouts and there are many twigs and branches – and more and more. Thousands of leaves grow, and hundreds of fruits. Diversity – all from a single seed. Visitor: But what is behind creation? What is the reason? SAI: First ask, ‘Who are you? CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI – Part Seventeen H (HISLOP): Would Swami please explain His statement that the world is a mirror? SAI: The world is a mirror, and life is the reflection of God. If the mirror is pure, only God is seen. The opposites, good and bad, are no longer seen at all. There is only God. If the world is not seen, then there is neither mirror nor any reflection. We have the idea of the world only because of the mirror effect. The mirror (world) exists only as long as our desires exist. ‘World’ means the inside sense world. We apprehend the world through the senses. These senses are seen outside. It is only because of the illusion of the senses that there appears to be a body. A corpse is burned when the wood is set afire. The inner senses correspond to the wood. When they are burned through inquiry and sadhana (spiritual practice), the body automatically disappears. Both inquiry and practice are necessary. H: But, Swami, our experience is that objects exist independent of our consciousness of them. SAI: For us the world exists only if we are there to see it. If we are blind, we do not see it. If we are in a faint, it does not exist for us. For us, the world is as we see it. It takes shape for us according to our viewpoint. If your viewpoint is that all is God, then everything we see is God. Suppose we take a picture with a camera. Do the trees enter the lens and

CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI – Part Fourteen SAI : There is One, not two. If one sees a second, then Maya is in operation. H (HISLOP): Life appears to be somewhat a jungle of unexpected dangers! SAI: Maya is harmless to the devotee of God. That same Maya , so dangerous to the person who does not believe in God, protects the devotee from all harm. The cat carries the kitten in the mouth from here to there, and the kitten is unharmed. But a rat is killed by a cat. It is the same mouth in both cases. Maya brings trouble, yet it is the same Maya that tenderly protects the devotee of God. H: Then, the devotee of God may just do his work and not worry about penetrating the illusions of Maya? SAI: Yes. The devotee may do work for God and pay no attention to the powers of Maya. God protects His devotees. His devotee is near and dear to God, and He carries the devotee safely through life. In Indian kitchens tongs are used to pick up and move the cooking utensil. The instrument can seize everything except the user. Maya are the tongs held and used by God. H: Then God holds Maya in one hand and the devotee in the other? SAI: Two hands are not needed: one hand is enough. If God held the devotee with one hand, the tongs might still seize him! So God holds both in the same hand. SAI: There is waking, sleep and dream, and deep sleep. In deep sleep there is no mind. All are changing states. Past is gone, future is coming, present is leaving. None of these changing states is truth; for all agree that truth is real and the same whether in the past, present or future. You are always that truth, changeless, constant, unaffected by change, always the same. H: Swami says that ‘I’ refers to the body. But when one thinks of himself he sees not just the body, but also his mind, his conditioning, and his tendencies. SAI: ‘Body’ means all the five senses and all that is implied by any extension of these. H: In deep sleep, body is gone and mind is gone. But there is a strong happiness. However, that happiness is only known afterwards as memory, and memory is just a thought; it has no reality. SAI: The difference between deep sleep and Samadhi is that in Samadhi the happiness is known at the time it occurs. H: Swami says that in Samadhi, happiness is known at the time that it occurs. But how could the person, the subject, be aware of himself as happy? Surely that implies a subject-object relationship. Subject-object is unreal, so what is experience in those terms must also be unreal, is it not? SAI: If one looks in the mirror and sees dust on the brow, he will at once remove it, even though he was unaware before looking in the mirror. Guru is the mirror. H: Once he has tasted sugar, one never mistakes salt for sugar. If that bliss of which Swami speaks is our real nature how is it that we confuse the unreal for the real? H: When one is merged in the divine bliss, is one aware of it? SAI: He is the witness of his bliss. The person loses his limited awareness for God’s total awareness. Deep sleep is Samadhi, where there is no world and no mind but only the experience of ‘I’. Freedom is that same experience in full awareness. H: At various times, Swami mentions happiness, joy, bliss. Is there a difference? SAI: Happiness is temporary; it is given to us by others. Next comes joy; one is joyful while filling the stomach – it comes and goes. But bliss is one’s rightful nature; it does not come and go. Bliss is not something that comes to one; it is one’s real nature and is permanent. H: If one is wholly absorbed in God, who will take care of the body? SAI: In waking and dreams, the mind is there, but who takes care in sleep? God takes care. Who takes care of the body at any time? One side may be paralysed – can you make it move? The genuine saints and yogis in the Himalayas have no way to take care of their bodies. It is God who takes care. H: Baba says that in Sadhana, at a certain stage the exterior nature ceases. How is that? SAI: There are ten stages in Sadhana, each cognized by sounds of various types ranging from just sound, through vibrations, bell, flute, conch, Om, thunder, and explosion. The 10th is pure form. Then senses are transcended. Until then everything is in the sense realm. Above the senses, there is the state of bliss as the universal body of God, which is light. H: Is that state of bliss there only for a time? What happens then in the daily round of living? SAI: That state, when fully realised as natural, always remains, Then the world is bliss, always bliss. Think God, eat God, drink God, breathe God, live God. SAI: No. One may go directly to the transcendental state, or to the state number 6 or 7 or anyway at all. It is not uniform. H: What should be one’s attitude to these Sadhana stages as one encounters them? SAI: The states change, but the attitude should be unchanging. H: But what value should one give to the various stages? SAI: The sadhaka will not be satisfied with any of the states. Because it is complete union that is desired. Desire remains strong and constant until the transcendental bliss is realized, and then desire ceases. Who is the poorest man in the world? H: The man without God? SAI: No the man with the most desires is the most poor. Until we realize the desireless state of pure bliss, we are in poverty. A Visitor: One gains a measure of spiritual understanding, but in the next life is it all swept away and lost? SAI: We say, ‘I am not the body, mind or intelligence, because they are impermanent’. These are of the same matter. They are not of different material. Just as butter, curds, buttermilk, ghee cannot again be joined to the others

CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI – PART Twelve Hislop: When you go out in the world, very likely you will get married. How will you relate to your wife? Student: Swami will have given me my wife. Swami is my spiritual father and mother, and in the real sense I am born of Him. He is God, and my wife is not different from Him. He is in her heart also. So I will regard my wife as mother, sister, and God. Hislop: Well, I have heard that Mother and Father are to be regarded as God. But this is the first time I have heard that one’s wife is to be regarded as God. I believe you are going to face some problems in this matter. SAI: (To Hislop in Telugu via another student) Ask him what he will do if his wife says he cannot come to Puttaparthi? Hislop: You know, sometimes a wife develops a very strong personality and takes command of the family. Suppose such a wife says to you, ‘You must not go to Puttaparthi.’ Student: It is God that I obey, not the wife as such. I would go to Puttaparthi. SAI: (In another aside to Hislop) Ask him what if his wife says she would leave him. Hislop: The wife is one body and mind. Swami is another. The wife has her independent viewpoint. You tell her ‘I will go to Puttaparthi. You may stay here.’ But wife says to you, ‘You will not find me when you return. I will leave you.’ Student:Such a wife is not my wife. I would go to Puttaparthi. She may go according to her own decision. SAI: Ask the boys some questions (the college boys were outside in the compound circled around Sai). Hislop: (to student) What do you want? Student:I want Swami. Hislop: I mean after you graduate and go out into life. Student: I want Swami. Hislop: Who is Swami? Student: He is Love. He is God. Hislop: Where is Swami? Student: In my heart. Hislop: But you see Swami’s body. How do you see Him as God? Student: We have confidence that He is God. Hislop: Where is God? Student: God is everywhere. Hislop: When you look at that tree, what do you see? Student: I see God. Hislop: How does this faith arise that God is everywhere? Student: There is some small experience of Swami. Then there is faith. SAI: No. Faith comes first and then experience. Students must not only know the answers to questions. The answers must be in the conduct of their lives, and on this basis they must teach others. Faith is natural to each person. Each person has some faith in himself, some confidence in himself. And the core of his being, of himself, is Atma. From this comes the foundation of faith in himself. A small example. One does not remember his birth and his mother tells him the date. He does not know by himself, but through faith he accepts what mother says. Father may not have been present at the event, but mother gave birth. She does not need to ask anyone. Some reflection will indicate that for the coming into being of the universe there must also be a basis. God is that basis. He knows. He need not ask anyone. In that subtle area, beyond body and intellect, only faith can exist. Faith is naturally with each person, and so also is love. Love is directed to various objects and to various persons, but love of God is the essential factor. Looking at that tree we note that the many branches, leaves and twigs have the one trunk as the factor common to all of them. The trunk, in turn, relies on the roots. To try to water each leaf and each branch would take much time, and the water would be wasted. But if we direct all the water to the roots of the tree, then each branch and leaf and twig will naturally receive moisture in the way that is best for it SAI: Sai gives them confidence. With confidence the words arise automatically. (To a college boy) What do you want when you finish college? Student: I want only to merge with Swami. SAI: Now the Avatar has taken a body to revive Dharma. He is here, engaged in that. So what is all this talk of immortality and merging? Your whole life is before you. First, find out what is the purpose of this life. If God Himself is here to foster Dharma and you engage yourself in the same task then you are worshipping Him. Then you are near and dear to Him, for you are serving Him, His devotees, and yourself. Hislop: (at Prashanti Nilayam) Swami, what is that new construction on the other side of the sheds? SAI: That is an oil pressing plant. Farmers in this area can bring their groundnuts and press out the oil free of charge. Hislop: I had heard that Swami was making a cottage industry for the villagers in these large sheds, but I did not know about the farmers. SAI: The Gokulam is also a model dairy to show the farmers. The cottage industry is to free the villagers from their poverty by showing them how to work and have an income from work. Hislop: That large shed beside the new High School that Swami is building, what is that for? SAI: There the students may learn skills to help them in a practical way. How to fix machines, carpentry, electricity, plumbing, construction of buildings and so on. Hislop: Will that be a feature of all the schools that Sai builds? SAI: Yes. Girls will learn sewing and household skills. CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI – Part Thirteen SAI: To beg from an equal puts you down and him up. But to ask God, you rise up to His level. You must ask God. To ask God is perfectly all right. It is not begging. Hislop: But I had thought that since God knows each problem, that if it was appropriate to remedy the trouble God would do so without being asked. SAI: Important answer! No. It is your duty to ask God. Words must be spoken, and the words must correspond to the thought. The thought must be put

CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI – PART Ten (A group of farmers, from whom Swami had purchased a parcel of land adjoining the college, came with a bag to carry away the purchase money. But Swami gave them some six times as much money as had been agreed upon for the purchase. The larger sum was also larger in bulk, and would not fit into the bag which the farmers had brought with them. The farmers could not understand why they were given so much money). Farmer: Lord, how can we possibly eat your money? Take it back. SAI: No. The extra rupees are to get you started in some business. For now that the land is sold, where will you manage? Everyone should work and earn their living. SAI: The ten-rupee note tells you that it has seen many faces and will see many more. Money comes to your hand, but does not stay; whereas morality comes and stays. Money comes and goes; morality comes and grows. With many people, they are quite agreeable to misuse money for self-indulgence, for bad action, but if the possibility comes up to use the money for a good purpose, they at once become extremely cautious and reluctant and bring up many objections. Hislop: Swami, on the road to Simla, drivers were very reckless in trying to stay close behind Swami’s car. At one moment, our car, which was going at a high speed, swerved to miss another car and was about to rundown a policeman at the side of the road. It seemed sure there was neither time nor space to avoid striking him, but at the last second only his uniform was brushed by the car and he was not harmed. Surely, it must be Swami who is driving every devotee’s car, is it not? SAI: In India , at age 60, people have a second marriage as rebirth of the marriage into spiritual life directed to God and not concerned with the senses. Prior to age 60, the couple were entitled to enjoy the fruits of the senses. At the age of 70, seven also has a significance. There are seven great Rishis and at age 70 a person should be merged with these saints. At age 80, there are eight Deities reigning over the directions. At age 80, we should be merged with these Deities. At age 90, there are nine special planets, and we should be merged with them. At age 100, one should be master of the five working organs and the five sense organs, and should be merged with God. The five working organs are talking, walking, rejecting (excrement), procreating and eating. The five sense organs are hearing, touch, sight, taste and smell. An Indian Visitor: These Hindu rites, is there anything to them? SAI: We owe debts of gratitude, and this gratitude must be expressed at the appropriate time, and in such a way as will enable the message to be delivered. Our gratitude is due to the two parents, Guru, God, nature and the sages. If a letter is sent correctly addressed, it will reach its destination, and one need not know about, or worry about the transit terminals through which the letter passes en route. In the case of the parents, their bodies have died, but the Atma has suffered no change. The correct address for the expression of gratitude is provided by the Mantra used in the ceremony. Mantras are very powerful, and in olden days they were relied upon. Nowadays machines are relied upon. The experts in Mantras were called saints. The experts in machines are called scientists. (A visiting scientist now raised a doubt about science vis-à-vis what Swami said). SAI: Science is highly fragmentary, and its approach to reality is through Maya, and this is a highly dangerous procedure. Science does not even know the truth of chemistry and physics. Each ten years or so, the old truths are discarded or modified because of research results. So, when man tries to compare science and the spiritual world of Baba, he is comparing a science whose finality is not known, with spiritual truth of which he is also ignorant. Science is from the senses downward. Spirit is from the senses upward. Science does not even know of the great holes in the sun through which winds rush to regulate the temperature. Science is hit and miss. For one to really know, he must have the total, over-all knowledge of Baba. H: Is there a reliable English translation of the Vedas? CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI – PART Eleven Hislop: Why does Baba have regular schools? Why not religious schools? SAI: Religious schools would appeal only to the religious, whereas Baba’s task is to raise the general public into devotion and spiritual life. One aspect of Baba’s task is to reform education, and if that were impossible He would not have come. Now, having come, be assured the task will be accomplished, but not as fast as impatient humans would like. By an intensive T.V. campaign, rapid change could be accomplished, but it would be only temporary. God sees things differently to man and He knows that to start early, drive slowly, reach safely is correct. The change that Baba is bringing about may be through slow methods, such as His colleges, but the methods will be effective. A small story: a young man of very poor parents graduated with a B.A., mainly because the teachers were fed up with his many failures at the exams. His parents were now proud and said, ‘We will find you a wife’. The boy replied. ‘I will take only a B.A. girl, for I am a B.A.’ Mother said, ‘We cannot afford servants for a girl who will come from her room at 9 a.m. We need a wife to help with the housework.’ The son replied, ‘It is my needs that matter, not yours. Do as I wish or I will leave’. The parents capitulated and secured the desired wife. The boy told his friends, ‘I am now happiness itself.’ Three days later he said to his wife, ‘My dear, arise

CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI – PART Eight Hislop: Swami says that “All is done by the Lord and not by you”. But, the world over, there is the concept that man is responsible for his own actions. SAI: You are God. As long as you are being human, there may be such thoughts. H: As long as you are being human, does that imply the human state is an act of one’s will? SAI: Not an act of will. Just a matter of being confused. It is a delusion. You come here with doubts. Swami knows that, so he gives you a chance to ask. If a Jnani comes, a man with direct experience of the divine, Swami does not ask him what his doubts are. The fact that you have questions is evidence that you are on the worldly level. Baba’s teaching will vary according to the level of the person.  teacher in a school may at the same time be a renowned Vedic scholar, but when teaching a child to read, he can only say, “This letter is ‘A’ this letter is T” and so on. Mother may feed one child at the breast, give soft food to another, tell the cook to serve food to another, and tell the eldest to serve himself. But though her treatment of each child may be different, her love is equal for all.There are four different stages in which man finds himself, and God gives different but appropriate help to each: first are those persons who are in distress; second are those desiring prosperity; third are those engaged in enquiry as to what is truth; and fourth are the wise.At present in you, there is a mixture of conscious and sub-conscious. For this reason there is confusion and doubt. In the unconscious state there are no impressions. In the super-conscious state there is no doubt, there is decision; in this state there is no body and no mind, although there may be visions. There is still another state beyond the super-conscious. This is Divine consciousness where God alone is. In the super-conscious state there is still a very slight tinge of duality, of giver and receiver. In the ordinary state there are the three: giver, gift and receiver. In divine consciousness there is the giver only. H: One hears about various paths to Self-realization. What does this mean? SAI: There are three paths. There is that of devotion; the Guru guides and all is left to the Guru to perform. Then, there is the perception that God is Omnipresent; the future comes up to the present and the past falls away from the present. God is omnipresent; so the present is God; this is knowledge. Then there is surrender to God. But surrender does not mean just doing all actions in His Name. Surrender to God is when the entire Universe is known as His body. Surrender is when doer, deed and object are all God. It cannot be forced. It comes naturally. Faith is the foundation; surrender is the peak. H: Of the many ‘roads’ to self-realization, what is the shortcut? SAI: The short cut is this way: the Name of God is the seed; love is the water by which the crop grows; discipline is the fence which protects the growing crop; the field in which the crop is grown is the spiritual heart; the crop when it comes to harvest, is Bliss. H: Why should one attempt to gain Self-realization when one is always Self-realized? H: But, Swami, one believes that he does have full faith. Therefore, there must be self-deception? SAI: As long as one thinks he has faith, he does not. Just as when one knows that he is meditating, he is not meditating. Only when meditation is automatic, all day long, there is meditation. Full faith is reached by Sadhana, just as Bombay is reached by approaching it. H: Sadhana, as it is described, seems wrong, because it is a conscious effort aimed at getting a reward. It seems to me that Sadhana is real only when it is spontaneous. That is, when one naturally loves God, then he cannot help but love God, and he cannot help but make inquiry. SAI: It is as you say, but you have not experienced that spontaneous love of God. It is still just an idea. You have a conviction that love of God exists naturally in you. That conviction is the result of many lives of spiritual practice. A Visitor: What is the correct Sadhana for retired people? CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI – Part Nine Hislop: This morning in the taxi from the airport, even the driver had marvellous experiences of Swami’s Leelas. And the Bombay airport officers told other miraculous stories about happenings in their homes. SAI: Leelas are occurring throughout India in tens of millions of homes. Swami keeps His hand down so that publicity about the Leelas will not spread. The rulers of the country know, but they keep it quiet. If the facts were to have publicity, millions would converge on Swami. H: In the future, when millions of people crowd around Swami, our present chance of being close-by will then be gone? SAI: Not at all. If Baba is pleased with a person he may still be close. That is Baba’s will. H: Only a relatively few are fortunate enough to see Swami and appreciate that it is God come within vision. H: What is one hundred per cent faith in God? SAI: One hundred per cent faith arises from the Atma. Full faith is even. Through pain and sorrow, faith in God remains full. Milk may be compared to life. In the whey there is no oil. Butter has some remains of water – this is the good and the bad – the butter the good tendencies, the water the bad. When the butter is boiled, at a certain stage there is a bad smell. This smell is the remaining impurities being boiled away. But have faith and keep on during that period. Then the pure ghee is left. That pure ghee is wisdom. The end of wisdom is freedom. H: Swami, something

CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI – PART Six A Visitor: Swami, one hears talk of Mantras. SAI: Just the repetition of a Mantra is of no value, but if the Mantra is chanted with full knowledge of its significance, it has a great effect. A Visitor: How can we improve memory? SAI: There is not much use thinking about the past, because it is gone. Trying to memorize is not of much value. We will naturally remember that in which we are interested. A small story: Arjuna was 85 years old, a middle aged man. In those days people lived much longer. Arjuna said, ‘Lord, how is it that you can remember all the past lives, and I cannot?’ Krishna replied, ‘Well, what were you doing ten years ago on the third day of the month?’ Arjuna said ‘I do not know.’ Then Krishna said, ‘Well, you were alive then.’ Arjuna replied, ‘Yes, I was alive.’ Krishna then said, ‘Look back Arjuna, 60 years to the day you were married, do you remember that?’ ‘Oh, yes,’ replied Arjuna, ‘I remember that’. ‘Then, look further back, Arjuna, to the day you met your Guru and were taught the martial arts. Do you remember?’ ‘Yes’, replied Arjuna, ‘I remember.’ Then Krishna said, ‘It is obvious that people remember that in which they are interested, that which was sufficiently intense to cause them to remember the incident. But they do not bother remembering that in which they are not intensely interested. Now, you do not remember 20 years back, but you know you were alive then, therefore the memory is there, but you cannot recall it. Now, I remember everything, Arjuna, because I am interested in everything A Visitor: (carrying a professional camera): Can I take Your picture now? SAI: (in English): How many are here? Two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten…..twelve. A Visitor: Twelve disciples. SAI: This is my camera (Swami opens His hand and there are 12 small pictures of Himself amid much exclamation from the group). Keep them in your purse. See, twelve! Full address also! Address here in India. No camera, no film, no flash. A visiting card. Puttaparthi is the address. (Sai opens a silver box and starts preparing leaves). Visitor: What is that? SAI: (in English) That is the nut. This is the leaf. See, the leaves, and this is the betel. This is not a bad habit. If it were a bad habit, Swami would not chew it. The leave’s juice purifies the blood. The nut digests. Here, they mix the nut and give it for digestion even with the little puppies. And the other thing that is put in is calcium. The three mixed make red colour. This is Indian. (The foregoing was said in a joking voice, accompanied with much merriment from the foreign visitors). A Visitor: The pictures that people take of Swami and then produce for sale are not good pictures. They do not do justice to Swami. Swami is perfect and everything around Him should be perfect. SAI: Some may like one thing and others may not like that thing. The liking and the disliking is not in the object, but in our minds. If a person judges just from appearance, then it indicates a lack of depth. First they should know Swami, and then make a judgment. A Visitor: But Swami is beautiful and the pictures make Him ugly. SAI: Love is the beauty. A Visitor: How does one get devotion to God? SAI: Confidence is necessary. Food is the origin – the body is made from food. Without health, it is very hard to do anything. The stomach is of four parts: one quarter air, one quarter food, and one half water. Too much food is taken nowadays; there is no room for water. In India, rice and wheat are standard. They are all right if taken in moderation. But people eat too much and become dull. Too much food results in dullness of mind. Food in moderation does not result in sickness. Swami travels to various parts of India and does not get sick from food. Swami becomes sick only when taking on the sickness of a devotee. Otherwise, never. Too much milk is bad. It is Rajasic. Visitor: Sai Baba, this is for me, this is not for anybody, just for myself – my food. Meat is important, meat is my food. SAI: Food is important for the body. Food is the reason even for being born. Mother and father have been nourished with food and then give birth to a child. The parents have grown up on food. The whole body is a food bundle. The type of food you eat creates the kind of thought that will come to your mind. There will be a Sattwic effect if you have Sattwic food such as fruit and milk everything that is cool and not hot like strong onions. Meat gives the blood an effect, like passion and similar qualities. Dirty thoughts come with fish. Although fish is always in water, it has a bad smell. A Visitor: How about lamb? SAI: Meat is all right for those who concentrate on the body and want to have strength, but for spiritual aspirants it is not good. SAI: Yes, the body will get proteins with meat, but mental proteins will not be there. If you are keen on a spiritual life, eating meat is not worthwhile; but if you are keen on worldly life, it is alright. There is another spiritual reason. When you kill an animal you give it suffering, pain and harm. God is in every creature, so how can you give such pain? Sometimes when someone beats a dog he cries, he feels so much pain. How much more pain then occurs in killing. Animals did not come for the purpose of supplying food to human beings. They came to work out their own life in the world. When a human being is dead, the foxes and other animals may eat the body, but we have not come to provide food for those that eat

CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI – PART Four SAI: No man’s heart is really dry. At least men have sense love. At least you have worldly love for children, family and others. It is the same love, but given to some only. You only have to take it all and give it to God. A Visitor: If his heart were completely dry, he would not want to come to Prashanti Nilayam. SAI: Even in coming to Prashanti Nilayam, you could love your wife and family. Love is God. Live in love. Love itself is God. He is nothing else but Love. There are different forms of love; love for family and love for money; but love for God is devotion. There is a glass of water. An Englishman will call it water, an Andhra man will call it by another name and in Tamil still another name is given. But the water is the same. We just call it by different names. The names of love for wife, children, and objects differ; and love for God is called devotion – but the love is one. The most important thing you have to develop is love. If you develop love you don’t have to develop anything else. H: But love is not something made by man. Love is not something created by man; how can I develop love? SAI: You have love for the tape recorder. How is it that you have that love? When the tape recorder was in the shop, did you love it? But because you have got it now and it is yours, ‘my’ tape recorder. You did not love it in the shop; you love it now because you feel it is ‘mine’. So, when you think God is ‘mine’, you love Him. A Visitor: I make an effort to strengthen love, but I know it does not happen. SAI: It is a question of practice. Intellectually you understand. Say, you have a temperature, a 105 degree fever. If you keep on chanting 100 times, ‘I want penicillin injection’, it won’t cure you. You have to have the injection. You don’t have to chant that you want penicillin; you just have to have one shot and you are all right. Instead of thinking of ten different things to do, if you do one thing correctly, that is enough. When you are thirsty, you don’t want all the water from the well. One glass will suffice. You don’t have to take all and try to practise everything. Take one. Here is a match box with some 60 matches; if you want to light a fire you need to strike one match, not the entire box of matches. H: Swami, in the hospital, each patient has a principal disease; is the doctor able to know that principal disease? SAI: If he is a good doctor, yes. If he just has a degree, no. In present day India in the political field, people have studied very little; but because of politics they get a doctors degree. H: Then let the Supreme Doctor tell me what my chief disease is – not physical. SAI: You do have this desire to go towards God. But you are just at the point, ‘How to go to it’, you are wanting to know. This, Swami cannot say before the others. He will say to you separately. Such problems are separate. Like the doctor, each patient he examines separately, not while everyone is in the room. A Visitor: Swami, do I continue teaching with the same meditation? It is not always the same people there. SAI: You must have the same group. Then if new people come, you must give them a separate time and do not mix them with the others. Visitor: Yesterday there were a number of new people. SAI: There is not much difference within the group. Even the people who come to you do not know much. If the child wants to learn ABC’s, he must continue to say ABCD and so on. A Visitor: When should I leave? SAI: Whatever your decision is. If you want to leave on the 19th morning, Swami will see you tomorrow. But if you have other plans, it will be adjusted accordingly. Swami is not limited by space. Wherever you are, here or in Bombay or wherever, He is with you. You have to be happy. That is what Swami wants. So it should depend on your decision.Visitor: But I am a person for whom decisions are a great difficulty. SAI: Deciding good and bad all the time is a human problem. You can leave on the 19th morning.A Second Visitor: Swami, I have been away from business and I want to talk with Swami, but if I stay another month, then there will be only one final talk with Swami. I want to talk with Swami now, and then stay a month. SAI: Tomorrow is Thursday. Swami will see each of you individually, then you can make your plans when you want to leave, or stay. With you, it is like this; you have a few doubts, now you want to clear these doubts immediately so as to leave room for new doubts, (much merriment from the interview group). That is your plan. SAI: (to a visitor): You have some plan for poor people. What are the details? Visitor: The old Mandir. We should make a number of new homes for the poor people. Then those who are now staying in the old Mandir can move to the new houses and then the old temple can be made like new. It is Swami’s first Mandir and it should be saved for history. If people continue to live there, it will tumble down in no time at all. To just use it for living looks like a lack of respect from the people who are in Puttaparthi. SAI: That can be discussed further at a later time. Now, Swami is troubled that all of you have come from so far spending so much. Your love is so touching. There is no price for that love even if measured